Let's go for a walk...
That's exactly how far the proposed Cordoba House Islamic Center site is from Ground Zero.
*Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a practitioner of Sufism, and a vocal, long-standing critic of radical Islamic extremism.
*The area of Lower Manhattan where the World Trade Center would one day be built was developed in the 1880s by Ottoman Christians and Muslims and referred to as "Little Syria."
*Ground Zero is now a highly symbolic site: a cauterized national wound, if you will, that has been felt by the whole of America.
Deep breath.
Now then, can we discuss the issue intelligently?
Discuss this intelligently? Let's do.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, there is already a mosque within a few blocks of the site. This is nothing new.
Second of all, the proposed institution two blocks from ground zero would not be a mosque. It is intended to be an interfaith cultural center promoting harmony and understanding between people of various faiths and cultures. It would have a prayer room for those who would choose to use it. An imam at the site would probably be just one of a handful of spiritual leaders offering their expertise and services.
I wish those that rail against the proposed cultural center would step back and place a transcription of their comments next to press releases from terrorist organizations so they could see the similarities in the intolerance expressed within both. The opposition to this well-intended center is precisely how the terrorists would want us to react. It feeds the image they promote of America.
This whole (non)issue is to detract from more pressing matters such as the economic inequality of our current society and marketplace. It is a strawman issue used by unscrupulous so-called "leaders" to gain political advantage for themselves. They do so at the expense of peace, harmony and justice. They would damage our country if it would advance their personal or partisan political fortunes. It is unpatriotic, unAmerican, disgraceful, unethical and counterproductive.
I despair that so many are being led to see 9/11 and its aftermath as a Islam v. Christianity issue. That is the way the terrorists framed it and wanted us to frame it. But it was and is a purely political event. The extremists that perpetrated the attacks on 9/11/01 want to sway their nations to their radical views. They hoped to get pretty much the reaction they got from the US in order to make their views more palatable to the mainstream of their societies thereby gaining political power to advance their own agenda.
When we vilify entire cultures or religions in order to vent our anger or provide an obvious, convenient, though inaccurate, target for anger and retaliation, we play right into the terrorists' hands and serve their cause. In the process, we overlook, deny, trample or even seek to repeal the very foundation and fabric of our own nation- the Constitution, our own laws, and the creeds that provide the global reputation of the United States as a just and benevolent nation and that of Americans as a noble people.
We need to stop, catch our collective breath and think before we speak and act. We need to remain calm, cool and calculated. Above all, we need to behave like the Americans we were meant to be and not be the slaves of our basest natures, but rather the masters of our better selves.
Personally, I feel it is necessary as upstanding citizens to expose those who would serve their selfish purposes by leading us to denigrate ourselves. We need to develop a social temperament that would caution them to be on their best behavior. Refusing to "jerk our knees" at their slightest encouragement would be a good start.
But then, that is just my opinion.
Probably not, Corey. We've pretty much lost our ability to discuss anything reasonably. We can't even agree on one set of FACTS, on which to debate.
ReplyDeleteThis little video "walk" helps get perspective I think. Here's another piece you might check out--some pictures of other things that are located within the same distance of ground zero on the "hallowed ground" (including strip clubs, bars, and OTB)
http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
Last night I heard one talking head (Chris Hayes, I think) refer to this as a "nontroversy"--which I think is a great term. Think of all the "nontroversy" that has surrounded Obama these last four years...the artificially ginned up "outrage" over birth certificates, lapel pins, bowing courteously to another head of state, addressing schoolchildren, death panels, etc, etc, etc.
We've mastered the politics of distraction. By keeping people outraged over manufactured "issues" we keep the water poisoned enough to ensure we can't make significant progress on any of our real problems.
Here's a question: Should Christians not be allowed to build churches in Oklahoma City near the site of the Murrah building that was bombed in 1995, or in Atlanta near the site of the 1996 Olympic Centennial Park bombing, because Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph espoused fanatical "Christian" views?
Well put, Kendall!!!
ReplyDeleteSteve and Kendall--BOTH awesome posts!
ReplyDeleteI heard this "mosque" is supposed to be more of a YMCA than a church. What group of people doesn't need community centers for old and (especially) young these days?
Steve----I love your Oklahoma City analogy! Has anyone seen that put to the most verbal of protesters? I'd love to see Sarah Palin answer that, but then I would have to tune to FoxNews first! LOL!
And I am thinking the people protesting this center are the same people visiting OTB, strip clubs and the other pictures seen in your link.
Corey--this blog posting could get super interesting! As always, thanks for doing it.
I am hoping for a major uprising of our governmental system someday soon so we can get back to passing decent legislation that needed to help the majority of our citizens. I don't think our Founding Fathers were thinking of today's chaos as what they had in mind when they set up the US of A.
I think it is important for us all to realize how symbolic the World Trade Center site is to people beyond Manhattan. It is understandable that emotions run high when considering anything appearing to pair the site directly with Islam.
ReplyDeleteI posted the walking video to try to convey some sense of space and place that most of us outside of NYC simply don't possess. Steve's posting of the photos of other establishments within comparable distance makes the point even better. Two blocks from Ground Zero is a short walk, but possibly a different world. It is a living, breathing, diverse neighborhood, not a museum or memorial. There has been a strong Muslim presence in the area for at least 130 years. Is it fair to object wholesale to that presence now?
I can certainly understand misgivings, as Islam as practiced by many in the world is not exactly transparent (or even friendly) to the outsider. But if we object to radical Islam, shouldn't we SUPPORT moderate Muslims and their efforts, especially their more publicly prominent efforts?
For many, this is now a profoundly emotional issue. It is important to listen with an open mind to what genuine objectors have to say. I hope one or two might post something on this blog so we can have some healthy dialogue.
Corey, Thanks for the opportunity to post what I am sure will be a minority view here.
ReplyDeleteIt’s been my observation that our country has become just the opposite of “Knee Jerk” and is far too complacent when it comes to issues of law and of the heart.
Complacency has led to our children not being allowed to say the pledge of allegiance in school.
Complacency has led to “In God We Trust” being removed from our currency.
Complacency has led to our children to not be able to go out and play without parental supervision while pedophiles are accepted and embraced in our churches.
Granted Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a practitioner of Sufism and know as a sufi. While he has condemned the 9/11 attacks as “un-Islamic” he as of late has made several controversial statements regarding 9/11 and Hamas. But beside that, my contention is not whether a Mosque/YMCA/Community Center is built, but where is it built.
The location of the proposed structure is 45-47 Park Place and 49-51 Park Place.
The property at 45-47 Park Place was purchased at a “fire sale” price of $4.8 million dollars. I say “fire sale” because this is fact what it was. This building was damaged by debris falling from the World Trade Towers as they crumbled to the ground. The trade towers are not “Ground Zero” but part of “Ground Zero”. If you believe that the only victims that day were in the towers then I can see why you have placed so much value on the video that was gleaned from “Huffington Post”. So based on the interpretation that there were victims other than just the people in the trade towers, lets walk the distance again.
Secondly, this issue has been brewing outside of the mainstream media since November 2009. I would not consider my repulsion to be based on a “knee jerk” reaction bolstered by more right wing smoke and mirrors. I consider my repulsion to be based on my understanding of Muslim law, mosque placement practices and the fact that this site was the site of an enemy attack on US soil. I base it on the information that I received in training as a hazmat technician on a special operations team. I base it on the memory and honor that we need to proliferate forever in relation to those who died that day.
Thirdly, as stated by Kendall, “It is a strawman issue used by unscrupulous so-called "leaders" to gain political advantage for themselves. They do so at the expense of peace, harmony and justice. They would damage our country if it would advance their personal or partisan political fortunes. It is unpatriotic, unAmerican, disgraceful, unethical and counterproductive.
When we let down our guard, our vigilance, our uniqueness as “Americans”, then we do so at the expense of peace, harmony and justice. We then fall victim to ignoring valid national or even more importantly, MORAL concerns.
Last two items, then I’ll crawl back under my rock or maybe go out and tip a few cows. I take personal offense to Mr. Gretz comment related to “manufactured issues”. Was 9/11 this? Is the (whispered) ”war on terror” this?
Lastly to quote Brenda Jo, “And I am thinking the people protesting this center are the same people visiting OTB, strip clubs and the other pictures seen in your link.
Brenda Jo, your not thinking.
Some much for taking a deep breath and discussing this intelligently.
That symbolic value--the iconic status--IS important for us to keep in mind. And that's what makes this such a firecracker of an issue.
ReplyDeleteOne of the interesting bits of reporting I've seen is a careful look at the polling that shows Americans, by a pretty large margin, don't want to see this community center built.
Analyzing the poll results by where the respondants actually lived, shows that the further away from Ground Zero they lived, the more strenuously they objected. In fact, the folks who actually live closest to the proposed building site polled slightly favorably toward the idea of building it.
What that tells me is that for US, who live away from the site, we're talking about a symbollic issue. Ground Zero is OUR hallowed ground; our iconic place. For the people who actually live there, it is their neighborhood. The people who want to build the center are their neighbors. It is their community.
Of course 9/11 was not "manufactured." It was a deliberate, evil act carried out by people who hate us. I was and am as horrified and angered by it as any other American.
ReplyDeleteI'm just trying to think clearly here. There were loyal, freedom-loving American Muslims killed in the 9/11 attack too. There were Muslim-Americans who lived (and worshiped) in lower Manhattan before the World Trade Towers were built.
There are Muslims who loyally serve in the US Armed Forces today--some even at the Pentagon, another iconic symbol that was attacked on 9/11. Should US Army chaplains serving at the Pentagon be told NOT to allow any Muslim worship services to be held there anymore because that would be an affront to the victims of 9/11?
The issue is not one of whether or not Muslims can worship. The issue is where they are proposing to worship.
ReplyDeleteThis is similar to Catholics and Jews whom were torn apart over the presence of a Carmelite convent at the Auschwitz concentration camp. There were people from over twenty different countries imprisoned in Auschwitz. The Carmelite convent was established in Oswiecim, a proper place for Polish nuns. The trouble is that Auschwitz, a death camp for Jews, existed at the same location. The Carmelite nuns were there to pray for them. Regardless of their intentions it was viewed as unacceptable and after a period of time the Pope ordered them to vacate the convent.
David Conner
At the time many saw in it an attempt by the Catholic Church to de-Judaize the Holocaust, especially since the Church had maintained a presence at several of the former concentration camps.
ReplyDeleteWord are dangerous and prior to throwing them out for all to hear, they need to thought out. Folks may categorize themselves as being as horrified and angered as any other American. This is an assumption. Not all Americans were angered by this act. You may recall that to some it was written off as a premeditated act orchestrated by our own government. While many people tend to see good in all or assume that there is good in all. There isn't. We need to understand that in some we need to be diligent in our responsibilities and vigilance. I'm a firm believer that right or left, dem or rep, there is an agenda. Look back over the last two years and honestly reflect about the promised change.
ReplyDeleteIs there transparency in government? Far from it.
Are we out of Iraq? No.
Are we out of Afghanistan? No.
Was health care the number one issue that needed to be addressed by our elected officials? No
Therefore, We as American's need to stop dancing around political correctness and develop a backbone that sets us apart from Canadians, French and Cubans. We are Americans from the United States of America.
Illegal aliens are just that Illegal.
My Great-Grandparents didn't stand in line at Ellis Island because it was convenient. They did so because it was the law. We enforced laws then.
God was feared, yet God was still great.
We conducted ourselves under the auspice of wanting to get to Heaven when we died. Now we can't talk about Heaven without making sure that everybody feels comfortable about it.
I could rant forever, but it is my wish in the future, We take the approach of what would God want, not what a God loving Liberal or God loving Conservative would want.
I am thinking about the the Golden Rule, treat others as we would like to be treated. While I do not condone the attacks of 9/11, all Muslims and their faith traditions are not responsible for the actions of the small group of radicals who planned and implemented this attack. Within each faith tradition, we find a variety of beliefs, both conservative and liberal. It doesn't make that religion, the location of the place of worship or the people who worship bad. It seems to me that in our current atmosphere of reactionism and sound bites, we have lost sight of our fundamental beliefs as a nation, including the right to worship without fear of proscution. In the end, that proposed community center could help support healing located near the site of such a hateful act.
ReplyDeleteWhen I am introduced as a Christian pastor, two reactions are predominant:
ReplyDelete1 - Those who have been alienated, abused or otherwise mistreated by certain types of Christians withdraw. What they know of "Christians" leads them to at least be leery, and sometimes to be openly hostile.
2 - Those who are of the prominent fundamentalist stripe either assume I share their rigid belief system or float litmus statements to determine if THEY consider me Christian. Again, leeriness or open hostility ensues.
There is little I can do about this, but I try to the point of world-weariness to reverse these trends, one interaction at a time. It's freaking EXHAUSTING, but, in our placard-toting, media-soaked culture, perception becomes reality so instantly and incessantly.
I think the same sort of experience is at work on multiple levels here. Peace-loving, extremism-resisting Muslims, are simultaneously blasted for not taking a strong enough public stand against their radicalized brothers and sisters, and demonized when they do. This has turned into a no-win situation for Imam Rauf and his community, largely due to a persistent misperception regarding Islam. The terrorists have thus succeeded in turning their soulless, murderous anarchy into a Holy War.
The comparison of this situation to the Carmelite convent at Auschwitz is apt. Michael McGurn's excellent column from the WSJ is here: http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704271804575405330350430368.html
When an element of the Polish Catholic Church placed a convent in a theatre adjacent to the Auschwitz camp (it had served as a storage facility for tanks of the poison gas used at the death camps), Jews around the world were outraged by what they viewed as a cynical, malevolent attempt to "Christianize" the site. Lost in the resultant hubbub was the fact that a like number of Catholic Poles had also died there. This point simply didn't matter, because the horror of the Jewish experience at the hands of the Third Reich had forever converted the site to something far beyond real estate. Furthermore, Jews had ample reason to distrust the RC hierarchy, no matter the mission and history of the Carmelites.
FInally, the Vatican stepped in and pressured the Polish church and the Carmelites to relocate, and considering the reaction of stake-holders far beyond the Polish town with the infamous name, rightly so, in my opinion.
Now in lower Manhattan, in the face of such vociferous opposition, what could have been an excellent resource for deeper understanding, unity and anti-radicalism brings hurt, rancor and division instead. Several moderate Muslims and sympathetic friends are now calling for a change of location for the Cordoba House. For too many non-Muslims around the country this is a matter far beyond real estate, and the symbolism and meaning run deep.
I grieve for our nation's increasingly disparate "realities," and our equally powerful and counter-productive knee-jerks. The fight over this Islamic Center shows me that we understand and trust each other less and less. We are split and thus inadequately engaged in the more important international struggle of ideas. I find most of the media coverage and punditry come from mile-wide mouths with inch-deep understanding.
We can neither bomb nor marginalize our way to a kinder, gentler world, and when education involves suspending one's well-stoked world view, it is a fragile, painstaking process for which few have the intestinal fortitude, attention span or patience. Our favorite tools are woefully inadequate to the task.
In my opinion, to simply move forward with the building of the Cordoba House on the chosen site will run counter to most of its supporters' ultimate intended mission -- the neutralization of radical Islam. To simply force it out of the chosen site will run counter to most of its detractors' ultimate intended mission -- the neutralization of radical Islam.
At least we're all in this painted-in corner together.
Well put, Corey.
ReplyDeleteI wonder--has anyone heard of any positive suggestions/alternatives being proposed that could lead to a win/win resolution of this issue (or at least not to a lose/lose one!)?
Wouldn't it be nice if some interfaith group could buy the property and build a non-sectarian community center, where people of all faiths could worship, learn, and find common ground at that site?
Steve--wouldn't that be a nice solution? Not what the Islamists would necessarily want as their first choice, but if they have a safe place to go,...
ReplyDeleteDavid--I respect everything you wrote even if I don't agree with it. I may be simpler than some in my thoughts, I know. I really do try to believe all people are good. But I don't think the "fire sale" portion of your message makes sense. If McDonald's, a strip club or Abercrombie & Fitch decided they wanted that property, when they were gutting the building do you think they'd try to figure out what scraps of metal and glass were from the World Trade Centers and make a mini-memorial on site? I don't. time is money in the construction industry.
Corey--as always thanks for starting this discussion.
Corey -
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if my delivery or message offended or alienated anyone. That wasn't my intent.
I'm very emotional about 9/11 both from my public safety background and the fact that I used to work with folks in the towers.
Please accept my apology. You know that I am not one to make small talk and the shortest distance to the jugular is a straight line.
Brenda Jo - In relation to the "fire sale" portion, keep in mind that it has been nine years and a McDonald's, a strip club or Abercrombie & Fitch wouldn't buy the building. If time is money in the construction industry, how come this building couldn't be sold for almost a decade and finally sold to a foreign organization for less than you could purchase a condo in Manhattan.
The symbolism that is what it is, is lost, and my point has been missed.
God bless you all.
No apologies necessary from you or anyone else on this blog, David. I think this is an excellent discussion.
ReplyDeleteWas it a foreign organization that bought the property???
I have noticed that many of the people who are so concerned that we are losing freedoms are the same who are trying to find a legal loophole to prevent civilians from establishing a community center on private property. Even if the location is insensitive (despite being supported by a majority of locals and being located in the same area as strip clubs, chain stores,etc.), that doesn't change the fact that the building will be on private property.
ReplyDeleteWould it not be more frightening if citizens were PREVENTED from setting up a place of community and worship on their own land?
Many are arguing that the fact that a majority of Americans do not want the "Ground Zero Mosque" to be created means that the group should be banned from completing their project. But the beauty of America is that our Constitution protects the right to do something that is unpopular.
The United States was founded as a place where all people - no matter what their beliefs, social status, or culture - can gather peacefully to build a better future for themselves, their families, and their communities. The Founding Fathers did not risk their lives to create a nation for which comfort and homogeneity were primary goals.
Corey,
ReplyDeleteIn July 2009 Sharif El-Gamal setup SOHO PROPERTIES GENERAL PARTNER, LLC a Delaware corporation as a foreign entity in the New York State Division of Corporations
Yeah...pretty much why I shut off my television for the summer, and catch my news off NPR, or the internet. I just can't deal with the yelling anymore. I feel so weighted down with the "I'm rights!!" that it's hard to stand up straight anymore. And so I really don't have any "facts" to contribute, all I have is a really profound lived experience that I think speaks for how I feel about this topic.
ReplyDeleteWhen September 11 happened I was in my first year at RIT and was taking a cultural anthropology class where our assignment was to interview an international student about their culture. My interviewee was a young Muslim woman from Turkey.
At a time where Muslim= evil in public opinion, she and I would sit and talk for hours about her life in Turkey, and about Islam, and the Koran. Each conversation helped to demystify the swirl being created by the media and helped me escape all the anger that was being espoused. I think what allowed me to listen was the little understanding/exposure I had to Islam myself,plus the a lifetimes experience of discrimination that helped prevent me from falling into the group think of discrimination myself. So I listened, and I asked questions and did my own research. And it taught me that sometimes the best way to deepen one's own understanding was one person, at a time. As Helen Keller states, "I do not want the peace that passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace"
I bring this story because whatever side we're on, and whether the issue is an interfaith center or a mosque or gay marriage, or health care, or war or immigration, any of these things that we're busy beating each other over the head about, this is ultimately about us as people. We all suffer. We are all impacted in some way.
I bring that story cause I feel so truly blessed that I encountered this woman who reminded me that there is no one perspective that is better than another, we all suffer at the hands of this eternal battle of revenge. While people were finding bodies and looking for loved ones, she was experiencing the venom that resulted from everyone's fear, and hearing stories of her own friends being beaten, or killed simply for being Muslim. I'm not comparing,or contrasting, I'm just saying it's a continuum of horror that touches all lives.
I wonder what we could do instead of spending 9 years still arguing who started it. I'm wondering, when. When does peace come? Who is really willing to embrace an opportunity to stop picking at the wounds and let new flesh come, let healing come?
Perhaps it can start by learning more about another person's spirit, by learning about other people letting the fear go, rebuilding new tropes. A new view of them and new view of us.
Perhaps this place can be the riverside where we lay down our burdens, and study war no more.
Perhaps.
And that's my earth mother, granola eating, flowy skirt wearing, dawning of the age of Aquarius, deep deep deep plea for enough already, opinion.
And that's all I really have to say about that.
FYI there is a conversation about this issue going on right now on WXXI's radio program 1370 Connection.http://interactive.wxxi.org/listen
ReplyDeleteI'm certain there will be an archive podcast.
David said:
ReplyDelete"Complacency has led to our children not being allowed to say the pledge of allegiance in school.
Complacency has led to “In God We Trust” being removed from our currency.
Complacency has led to our children to not be able to go out and play without parental supervision while pedophiles are accepted and embraced in our churches."
David, sorry Brother, but this sounds like a Fox Network nightmare.
I have never heard that children were not permitted to recite the pledge. Quite the opposite- they have always been required to, much to the chagrin of my classmates who were Jehovah's Witnesses.
"In God We Trust" has never been removed from our currency. Indeed, historically, it was never there. It was added in the last half century or so in a political climate much like today's where religion has been injected into nearly every political discussion. If you're referring to the new dollar coins, look at the edge/circumference of the coins. It is stamped there.
And I've never heard of pedophiles being "accepted and embraced" in a church. Perhaps there are cases where some have had to have their wish to attend services defended from those that would drive them out. That sounds more like a local issue than a national trend. I said this in an editorial years ago when a local church had revoked membership from a man who came out as gay: "What better place for a sinner than church? If a church drives sinners from its doors, does it not become simply a social club for the self-righteous?"
I respect and appreciate your expression of your opinions here, but I have not ever heard of any of the instances you stated above.
The students at my public school, where I work, say the pledge to start each day, right after morning announcements.
ReplyDelete