...asked the kerjillion-celled, carbon-based life form as he and several billion companions clung to their little spinning rock, only the barest wisp of vapor protecting them from the infinite dead, cold vacuum of space.
We are incredibly improbable miracles. Our impossibilities are endless. When we speak of miracles, we tend to think of occurrences seemingly outside the realm of natural occurrence. But in truth, natural occurrence is, itself, miraculous.
So I don't believe God caused the sun to literally stand still in the sky for a day (those Hebrew writers were wonderfully poetic and figurative in their writings). I still believe in miracles, and even agree there may be the occasional miraculous intervention of an attentive God. I don't need to swallow it all at face value to believe it all, do I?
Do you?
Let's discuss!
I think if you were to swallow it all at face value, Corey, you'd go crazy. Or people would think you had!!
ReplyDeleteThere are so many day-to-day miracles (granted, not ALL are good), that it keeps life interesting for us. And I personally need that!
This time of year I am amazed that beautiful plants can come from these little seeds I started in my basement. Soon they will provide beautiful flowers and delicious vegetables. How can these little seeds KNOW to do all of THAT? Miraculous!
As you know, I am a Bible literalist. Meaning, I believe all of it cover-to-cover. No way could I pick-n-choose what is the truth and what isn't. If I believe Jesus died for my sins, then I have to believe that the sun stood still. In Joshua 10:12-14 the story appears that Corey referenced in his original posting. As it happens, I heard that same scripture taught a few days ago on the radio. The pastor/teacher was telling about the person (wish I had taken notes) who set out to disprove that the sun stood still in Israel. To do that, he researched the writings, folklore, and pictographs of other ancient civilizations from that time-frame. Each and every one of them had references to the day (or night) that the sun (or moon) stood still in the sky. Which brought to my mind what Abraham was told in the first part of Genesis 18:14: "Is anything too hard for the LORD?"
ReplyDeleteEither you believe HE can do it, or you don't...If, as Josie pointed out, you watch tiny seeds sprout into plants that produce fruits (or vegetables), you can't doubt the miracle of creation. Think about two microscopic cells becoming a living, breathing human being. Creation is the miraculous work of an incredible Creator. In Genesis, we read that when plant and animal life was created, it was designed for each to produce after its own kind.
How can I believe in those seeable miracles and not believe in others just because I never experienced them?
Yes, I "swallow it all at face value". Can't imagine anything else. So, I must be crazy, hunh?!
Now I am not a biblical scholar, so maybe I should not be in on this discussion. But you're stuck with it : )
ReplyDeleteWhen I read all of the miracles that God performed in the Old Testament, or the miracles that Jesus, and later his disciples, performed in the New Testament; my personal faith believes each and every one of them. 2 Timothy teaches us that 'God's truth stands firm like a great rock....'
So I guess my question to you Corey is which miracles do you want to believe? David's ability to slay Goliath with a sling and a stone? Moses parting the Red Sea? Sarah becoming a mother well beyond her childbearing years? Jesus feeding the 5000? Wasn't your sermon just last week about the people speaking in tongues about the mighty miracles of God for Pentacost?
Personally, I can't have it both ways. If my whole existence is based on the miracle of the ressurrection, then I have to believe that the sun stood still. For I either believe in every miracle that is written in His Word, or I can't believe in any of them. Josie's comment in regards to "not ALL day-to-day miracles are good" confuses me. Something bad that happens out of the ordinary is not a miracle, it is an unfortunate circumstance. A miracle to me is God's intervention for His glory and our benefit.
You're not crazy Mary---we are all individuals. SOmething else God got right! Imagine if we were all the same, or even similar!
ReplyDeleteOh---I guess my posting and Becky's crossed.
ReplyDeleteHaven't we all seen miracles which are good/marvelous for humans, but bad for something or some other species? I guess my definition of "miracle" is slightly different than what I just looked up in Webster's. I must be in one of my semi-annual "humans are selfish" phases!
Good question to Corey about which miracles he wants to believe in. Looking forward to his post!
For me, it isn't really an issue of "which miracles do I want to believe in." A literal, unquestioning, surface belief in every statement included in the books of the Bible never has been required of me. Nor has it been required of Christians through most of our faith's histories. It simply is not a step I need to take to have faith in and serve Christ.
ReplyDeleteI don't need to believe women must be silent in the church. I don't need to believe women should not teach men. I don't need to believe we should ask God to help us dash our enemies babies against the rocks. I don't need to believe that God literally made a donkey speak a human language. I don't need to believe God suspended all physical laws of the earth and universe to give Joshua more time (though one could argue that the sun doesn't move in the sky anyway, the horizon and the earth move).
For me, we lose so much truth when we insist on fact. Knowing Mary and Becky as I do, I take their statements of all-or-nothing around their chosen manner of interpretation as applying personally to them in their faith journeys. I know they know many Christians who would not agree with their stance, but certainly they don't consider people like me any less Christian for our outlook. Am I correctly stating your thoughts in this, girls?
That being said, I think many fundamentalist Christians become quite pharisaic in their treatment of the rest of us around this issue; and it has often struck me that such an outlook can cross the line from faithful to idolatrous really quickly.
As to the writings, folklore and pictographs of other civilizations, I've heard or read none of that sort of thing (but my ignorance doesn't prove anything of course). I wonder how and where and why such things were found and interpreted as they were. I also think one must realize that speaking of the presence of similar myths in other civilizations is a double-edged sword: it could mean that all are writing of a shared experience, but it could also mean that the Hebrew writers "borrowed" and re-interpreted someone else's legend. That becomes a somewhat slippery slope for some literalist believers.
I respect Mary and Becky, and have seen their faith in glorious action many, many times. Their thinking is just a bit different than mine when it comes to some of the interpretive pieces. How we approach our Bibles doesn't matter to me as much as how we approach each other and our world to be as Christ. Are we living it? Are we sharing it? Are we Christ to the world? I like to discuss our differences, but I LOVE to act for the Christ we share.
I would like to ask Mary and Becky (and anyone else reading this)why it has to be all or nothing. Does the thought that the writers might speak figuratively/poetically at times really eliminate the possibility of the resurrection for you? Isn't any reading of scripture necessarily our own...or some other mortal's...interpretation? The words don't simply jump off the page and tell you precisely what they mean. They must be digested, prayed over, applied and experienced. Anybody who picks up a Bible and reads is "guilty" of the "sin" of personal interpretation, eh?
Hmmm...
I agree with Corey that the Bible is open to many interpretations, which makes it a great book for us to live by.
ReplyDeleteI know Corey enough to know he doesn't use text in the Bible to make his points. But don't we all know people who start sentences with "WELL, the Bible SAYS..." when trying to correct something they thing we are doing wrong.
Interesting that only "fundamentalist" Christians are perceived as pharisaical. I know people who are not AT ALL fundamental in their beliefs that come across as pharisees. My dictionary is from 1993, but it says that pharisees "insist on the validity of their own oral traditions concerning the law". Whose law? HMMMM.
ReplyDeleteI'm certain there are many who don't agree with me. I can't judge the depth of anyone else's Christianity. Not my job. I've done the "surface" belief-thing. I like the in-depth approach much better. In that you were correct, my boy.
Anyone who has spent time in a "fundamentalist" church will know that women are not kept silent, at all. They are the same moving force you will find in ANY church.
Who said poetic speaking eliminated the resurrection for me? The Bible is full of poetry (Psalms/Song of Solomon...) and it is full of imagery. Please don't go there. Psalm 22 is a beautifully written piece and its subject is the crucifixion. Without the crucifixion, there is no resurrection.
As anyone who takes the time to read these exchanges can see, we will agree to disagree on many things....(See the shoulder-shrug?)
Works for me.
ReplyDeleteAs to the "only fundamentalists are seen as pharasaical" observation, I do not believe fundamentalists have an exclusive hold on this particular faith mal-formation -- I have suffered bad treatment from both extremes of the religious spectrum (and have probably been guilty of religious arrogance toward each, as well) -- still, it seems to me the all-or-nothing approach of religious fundamentalism in any faith lends itself to dismissive or even persecutorial interaction with those who see things differently.
ReplyDeleteOf course, the Pharisees of Jesus' day were deeply religious people -- morally upstanding and striving toward ethical consistency. These are good things. The Pharisees had a profound respect for Hebrew law and faith tradition, and they attempted to bring every facet of their lives into harmony with their beliefs. An admirable thing, to be sure. The term Pharisee took on a negative connotation when it came to some Pharisees' interactions with others who they perceived as unclean, sinful, or theologically muddled. These folks missed many opportunities to serve God, recognize the Savior and his basic instructions, and draw nearer to what Jesus called the Kingdom of God (which, it seems to me in my interpretation of Scripture, Christ meant to have present and functioning on Earth). Any time our faith outlook interferes with so much as providing a cup of cold water to some child of God, we are straying from the Gospel. It is difficult sometimes for us to recognize that Christ's ministry was primarily to the marginalized, the "unclean" and the scandalous. He told us to do likewise.
We have grown so used to the stories in our Bibles that we often fail to recognize how revolutionary they are. Often, we who live in the richest, most powerful nation in human history forget that in these Gospel narratives we most closely resemble not the leper, widow or orphan, but the religious leader, the Roman prefect, the rich young man.
That being said, I believe the greatest danger on the road of faithful living is a self-satisfied smugness. It is hard work improving oneself, and so much easier to simply disapprove of others to win some cheap sense of personal progress. If our public interaction consistently turns to finger-pointing and culture war as opposed to extravagant welcome and faith-filled encouragement, I would take this as a danger sign that we are straying away from the work and Word of Christ.
The most successful Christians I know (is that an oxy-moron??) are people who save the sharpest lens for themselves and the most charitable outlook for the stranger. Oh, that is so hard to do, isn't it?
Do I believe in miracles? Yes. I've witnessed numerous miracles in the fire service and have seen many things that maybe most people haven't. Though I cannot talk about it all. I've seen a man hit a deer at 90 miles an hour, on his motorcycle, and stand up. I've seen accidents that you wouldn't believe people walked away from.
ReplyDeleteOutside of the fire service I've seen some natural miracles. I was there the night of my best friend's baby's birth. I've watched her grow up over the past 2 years. I've never really thought about these little humans and watching how they develop the skills that I take for granted.
That's my boy.
ReplyDelete